Talk:Sonderkommando

Non-Sequiter?

The aside "(Dr. Miklos Nyiszli noted with irony the fact that the medicines arriving were labeled in various languages because Jewish transports were coming from every part of Europe.)" in the 'Work and Death" section seems to be a non-sequiter in that it is not obvious how it relates to the surrounding text. Perhaps the relationship could be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.23.24 (talk) 05:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I came in to the talk page with the intention of saying this exact same thing. It seems - to me - like maybe this was just an editing error. The statement is incredibly unclear in its current placement. I assume it has been taken from Auschwitz : A Doctor's Eyewitness Account, but without a citation, it needs to be treated as a random piece of information. I think this was probably some kind of editing error - maybe it was meant to be inserted somewhere else and there was just a copy/paste problem. I tried to find a more appropriate place for the comment, but there is just one mention of "medicine" in the entire article and - honestly - I have absolutely NO IDEA what impact a reader is supposed to glean from this sentence without sufficient context clues. I'm removing this confusing aside as I'm not the first to notice it and almost three months have passed since the problem was originally identified by 118.90.23.24 (during which no changes or explanations have been offered.)

That being said...if you are able to relocate this statement to a more appropriate place - PLEASE DO. ocrasaroon (talk) 07:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sobibor

The Jewish Sonderkommando in Sobibor neither lead the revolt nor did they take part in the outbreak on 14 October 1943. The organising secret committee had unsuccessfully tried to contact them in Camp III, the killing site. All the members of the Sonderkommando were shot on 15 October. I think it will be OK to delete the reference to Sobibor. P. Witte 09:45, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

dual usage of term

Sonderkommando were SS units which carried out exterminations, disposed of dead bodies and erased traces of mass murder. Jewish Sonderkommando units were made up of Jewish camp prisoners who were forced to work in the gas chambers and crematoria. One of these units staged an uprising in the Birkenau camp in 1941. Only at Auschwitz-Birkenau was the term used specifically regarding Jewish prisoners who carried out the functions of the gas chambers and crematoria. Other camps, such as Chelmno, the term Sonderkommando was used in relation to the SS gaurds overseeing the gas chambers and crematoria. They were also forces to rape their own kind.

Sonderkommando means "special command". There were many. Here is one that should be included/linked to:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_Elbe or: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_Elbe&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsonderkommando%2Belbe%26hl%3Den

"The Grey Zone"

"The Grey Zone" is the title of a chapter (about the sonderkommando) of Primo Levi's book, The Drowned and the Saved.

GWAR disambiguation

The "See also" link to GWAR points to the heavy metal band Gwar. I think a disambiguation is in order from someone who can explain the other meaning of GWAR that is implied in this article! --Theodore Kloba 19:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

We need this info tout suite, I don't want people to think my hometown friends are related to Nazi death camps! Lachatdelarue (talk) 00:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I also don't think the link is appropriate, so I deleted it Jacib 00:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just found that an anon had added the link to Gwar. A google search shows up nothing relevant when searching for "gwar" and "nazi death camp". I guess this person thought they were being funny. Lachatdelarue (talk) 00:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, GWAR have a song named "Sonderkommando" (see here), hence the relevance. I agree with Jacib that it's inappropriate in this context. But in actuality there is an objective link between GWAR and Sonderkommando so I think we should reinstate the link with an explanatory comment. After all, it's not for us to say how appropriate a song is. --altmany 08:17, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks-- I didn't catch that in the Gwar article. It's relevant enough for me now that it's explained. --Theodore Kloba 13:55, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Names of surviving Sonderkommando?

Can you list the surviving member of the sonderkommando? Finally people who can go directly to the mass graves and say "dig here". I thought the day would never come. Thanks. -- posted by User:159.105.80.92 Dario Gabbai Frank Muller

Should attention not be drawn to the fact Jews were involved

I think it would be a decent illustration of the real human tragedy that the Nazis brought about in the camps. Laurence Rees book on Auschwitz may be a good read on someone looking to further their knowledge on the subject. Londo06 11:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Revolt

The revolt in Auschwitz is in Auschwitz: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account. I'd say that's a source, since the other one has no citation. It has two pages of detailed writing about the events but it contradicts what is written here. -Babylon pride (talk) 16:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on the reference. Also, it should be made clear that it was the 12th Sonderkommado that revolted. Otherwise, the impression given is that Sonderkommando in toto revolted at some point. In fact, no other Sonderkommando "unit" revolted at Auschwitz. This is a serious problem in an article purporting to give an account of Sonderkommandos. Additionally, under the same subheading of "Work and Death" a sentence reads, "They were forced into the position", followed by "and accepted it because it meant a few more days or weeks of life, as well as vastly-better living conditions." This is not an account of facts; it is a value-laden statement. "Forced into" has no meaning. They were to die anyway, so they chose an alternative path to death. As did the 12th Sonderkommando. This, too, is critical to an encyclopedic entry on this topic. This entry is very sloppy.

Why members of the Sonderkommando "accepted" their selection

I do not think it is correct to say that those selected for Sonderkommando duty accepted their roles even in part because the conditions in which they lived were better ("accepted it because it meant . . . vastly-better living conditions. They would sleep in their own barracks, which more than any other in the camp resembled normal human dwellings; various goods such as food, medicines and cigarettes") than conditions elsewhere in Birkenau. Members of the Sonderkommando were selected because they appeared to be in decent health; otherwise, selection was arbitrary and forced. Those selected "accepted," it seems from their own testimony, simply because they had no choice in the matter. Had conditions in the barracks been worse, they would have accepted as well, again, because they had no real options other than to assume their horrific burden. In fact, their duties were the most ghastly in the camps. Even minor disobedience meant severe punishment, including torture and probably death, and, at Auschwitz, in the beginning floggings and beatings were administered as a matter of course. Good sources for the predicament of the men chosen for the Sonderkommando are Filip Muller, Eyewitness Auschwitz and Gideon Greif, We Wept Without Tears. VanDiemen (talk) 23:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is incorrect. Those chosen in extermination camps knew that death was imminent in any case. They chose an alternative path to death, that of obeying SS commands as to the conveying of people through the passage to death, and the manipulation of the bodies and possessions afterwards. Even if rejection of this resulted, in every case, in a bullet, it is still a choice. Greif is not as scholarly a source as Gilbert, or, probably, Nyiszli for that matter due to his naked and self condemning autobiography. Read "The Holocaust" by Gilbert or "Auschwitz" by Nyiszli first to assess the claims of Greif. Muller may be correct - for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.29.39.196 (talk) 10:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What the Holocaust shows is that, given the choice of death or something else, no matter how frightful, 99.9% of people will do the something else. Only saints and heros choose death; and very, very, very few of us are one of those. 86.189.4.185 (talk) 20:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I think there should be something in the article about the moral ambiguity of it all (currently there isn't). What, for example, did other inmates think of the members of the Sonderkommando? - 124.191.144.183 (talk) 10:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

"The first task of the new Sonderkommandos would be to dispose of their predecessors' corpses"

Not so, according to Gideon Greif, see footnote 34, p. 357, discussion of seven documented liquidations of Sonderkommando members at Birkenau as well as seven smaller and undocumented liquidations. In most cases, the liquidation took place outside Birkenau or in an area of Birkenau located at some distance from where the Sonderkommando worked. Only in the case of the corpses of the several hundred workers murdered after the uprising of October 1944, it appears, did members of the Sonderkommando dispose of "predecessors' corpses," although, strictly speaking, the corpses were not of their predecessors but of fellow Sonderkommando. VanDiemen (talk) 23:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, but if all you have is a footnote, I'll take the book by Nyiszli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.29.39.196 (talk) 10:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Kapos vs. Sonderkommando?

I am a little confused—I always thought the term for people like this was Kapo(s), but that word is only used once on this page, and not defined at that. (I'll create a link to the Wikipedia Kapo page at the one usage.) Perhaps someone who could add the distinction (if there was one) between the two? Historian932 (talk) 02:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Kapos were the heads of each hut, they were not (Jewish/Roma/Homosexual) slave labourers but criminal prisoners serving jail terms. They could be more brutal than the guards. 86.189.4.185 (talk) 20:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

that's not the point. Kapos worked in concentration camps and supervised inmates. Sonderkommandos worked in death camps where there were no inmates - new arrivals were killed in a matter of hours. That's the big difference. Some kapos were in fact Jews tasked with supervising Jewish inmates (the ones who did slave labor, not the ones being gassed). 03:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.30.87 (talk)

Bone crushing machine

The picture of what is claimed to be a "bone crushing machine" seems to be the same machine depicted on the USHMM site here http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_ph.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005279&MediaId=824

The damaged machine shown in the photos is a rotating screen, where gravel or crushed stone was separated according to grain size, a necessary condition for making high quality concrete. The steel sheet contraption on the top is a feeding funnel, into which the raw material was fed from a conveyor belt. Such a rotating screen could be combined with a stone crusher. In that case, the stone crusher would have been much bigger than the screen, and the feeding funnel would have been superfluous. That's why I think the machine was used for treating natural gravel, not for crushed stone. The guys standing next to the damaged machine are wearing civilian clothes and are more likely to be construction workers than members of a sondercommando. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthpremium (talk • contribs) 19:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Length of time as Sonderkommando

The article says that the system of killing sonderkommandos after a few months fell into abeyance at Birkenau where some sonderkommandos managed to survive several years. As fas as I can ascertain Birkenau was only operational for three years at most, so 'several' surely needs to be modified. A source would be very helpful Lockstone (talk) 10:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC) Lockstone

incorrect use of term

"Sonderkommando" is a term used for Sondereinsatzkommando/Spezialeinsatzkommando of the police/military in Germany (like the SEK): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezialeinsatzkommando , this article describes the Sondereinsatzkommando KZ Auschwitz-Birkenau : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_KZ_Auschwitz-Birkenau 134.176.202.141 (talk) 02:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Missing infomation or dual-meaning confusion?

From Extermination camp article-

A prisoner Sonderkommando (Special Detachment) effected the most of the processes of extermination; they accompanied the Jews into the gas chamber, and remained with them until the chamber door closed. To psychologically maintain the “calming effect” of the delousing deception, an SS guard stood at the door, as if awaiting the prisoners. To deprive the prisoners of time to grasp the fateful facts of what truly was occurring, the Sonderkommando hurried them to undress and enter the (gas chamber) shower room as quickly as possible; to that effect, they also assisted the aged and the very young in undressing.[27]

To further persuade the prisoners that no harm was forthcoming, the Sonderkommando deceived them with small talk about camp life. Fearing that the delousing “disinfectant” might harm their children, many mothers hid their infants beneath their piled clothes. Camp Commandant Höss reported that the “men of the Special Detachment were particularly on the look-out for this”, and encouraged the women to take their children into the shower room. Likewise, the Sonderkommando comforted older children who might cry “because of the strangeness of being undressed in this fashion”.[28]

Are they talking about the SS officers or the extermination camp prisoners/workers? The Sonderkommando hypertext in the extermination camp article links to this article. If refering to the SS officers, then the link should be removed/changed and this needs to be clarified in the article. If refering to the prisoners/workers, then why the hell is this important information missing from this article?!! If it is, I had no idea that some holocaust prisoners helped perpetrate it against others (and just to buy some time)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.252.125 (talk) 01:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that Sonderkommando was used for deceiving the victims as well. It is described brilliantly and movingly by Vassily Grossman and by surviving Polish inmate Tadeusz Borowski. But what could Sonderkommando do? Maybe some thought it was a lesser evil - helping others to go to death without agonizing fear if they cannot be saved. At least it was Sonderkommando that oraganized the revolt in October 1944.Oleg-ch (talk) 22:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I removed Magneto from the "See also" section

I know Magneto was listed here because, in the main X-Men storyline, he was forced into duty as a Sonderkommando at Auschwitz. I just wonder where to draw the line. How does including a fictional comic book character, whose Holocaust experience motivated him to instigate genocide against a weaker populace than his, shed any light on this subject? And that's not to mention the fact that such a backstory is pathologically tasteless, if not revolting, ignorant, and offensive. SilverCity 02:44, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. No place for that here. -OberRanks (talk) 16:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Henryk Mandelbaum

The caption to Henryk Mandelbaum's photo on this page says:

"Henryk Mandelbaum and an interpreter talk on the ruins of crematoria at Auschwitz II. He was a member of the Auschwitz II Sonderkommandos at the time of the revolt by the Sonderkommandos. He told of how his unit, who did not revolt, were punished by having every third member of the group executed as a lesson."

On his page, it says "Mandelbaum participated in the rebellion of inmates on October 7, 1944, which was put down quickly by the SS.". To me this appears somewhat contradictory, can anyone clarify what actually happened? Was he the only member of his unit that participated? Did others from his unit participate? Did the whole unit participate? 46.208.134.72 (talk) 13:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Dresden Ohio Train Wreck

Why is a picture from a 1912 disaster in America captioned as Sonderkommando in Germany? I am very confused 71.169.181.208 (talk) 00:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Testimony

I have added more information about the Sonderkommando's written testimony, as this seems to me to be one of the most significant facts about them. UglyFox 16/10/15

Controversies section

I have a problem with this section, as it seems to be of excessive length per WP:UNDUE, and due to original research especially in the first paragraph. I do believe that controversies sections are generally not favored. Coretheapple (talk) 15:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Survivors heading in info box and other concerns.

I tried to edit this, but my edit was reversed. I don’t understand why my edit was reversed except for I am not an expert in Wikipedia formatting. I have a problem listing sonderkommando members who died as “survivors”. Leyb Langfus and Zalman Gradowski perished in the Shoah, they did not “survive” the sonderkommando. I realize that this is a debate of semantics, but words have accountability and meaning or at least they should. I feel that this heading should say “Members” or “notable members” to make the listing more accurately and encompassing. Truly, there wee some survivors, and this is not in dispute, but Zalman Gradowski and Leyb Langfus were not among them.

Secondly, it must be noted that the term sonderkommando as it relates to concentration camp crematorium details was only used at Auschwitz-Birkenau. The Jews who fulfilled the functions of the sonderkommando at other concentration camps, Treblinka for example, were not called sonderkommando. But this is a minor grievance. My main grievance is in the preceding paragraph.

--NeilFraudstrong (talk) 02:25, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Henryk Mandelbaum.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Sonderkommando

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Sonderkommando's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Vanderwerff":

• From Kurt Franz: [1]
• From Sobibór extermination camp: Lest we forget (14 March 2004), ""Extermination camp Sobibor"". Archived from the original on 7 March 2005. Retrieved 7 March 2005. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help) The Holocaust. Retrieved on 17 May 2013.
• From Treblinka extermination camp: Vanderwerff, Hans (22 July 2009), Extermination camp Treblinka, The Holocaust: Lest we forget, archived from the original on 17 May 2011, retrieved 10 January 2014 {{citation}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• From Sobibór Museum: Lest we forget (14 March 2004), "Extermination camp Sobibor" The Holocaust. Retrieved on May 17, 2013.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Sobibor revolt

I'm removing the section which says that sonderkommando prisoners participated in the Sobibor revolt. The current text cites only cite Schelvis 2007, who explicitly states that the sonderkommando didn't participate in the revolt:

"Lager 3 presented an incalculable risk. It was impossible to plan for the elimination of the SS staff there, in view of its complete isolation from the rest of the camp. If the SS were to realize that a revolt had broken out in the other parts of the camp, they were certain to hurry over to assist their colleagues and would resort to using their weapons. The organizers, very sadly, therefore had to concede that there was no way to save the Arbeitshäftlinge in Lager 3 as well." (Schelvis, 153)

I think it would be worth developing the text about the Treblinka revolt to specify the role that was played by sonderkommando prisoners in particular. However, I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to do that well at present. Botterweg14 (talk) 01:36, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Survivors?

Leib Langfus and Zalmen Gradowski are both Lister as survivors of the Sonderkommando's. But both werd murdered in the camp. The should be listed as persons who left testimonies on paper, not they survivors the campus, but there testimonies did. Hveene (talk) 14:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I found a recent source that confirms that four of the five authors of the Scrolls of Auschwitz did not survive, and I added that to the article.Roches (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

So it turns out that Morris Kesselman, a family member of mine (via marriage -- technically he was in my wife's family, and is now deceased), was a Sonderkommando. I knew Morris Kesselman and when he was alive had discussed with him his time in Auschwitz. Morris was an honest and reliable source, though the things he experienced were beyond human comprehension. Morris Kesselman gave his testimony to the USC Shoah Foundation [2] and spoke of his time with the Sonderkommando unit. I know he survived Auschwitz, the war, and the camps and I would count Morris Kesselman as another documented member/victim of the Sonderkommandos.

(talk) 01:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

References

I spoke with an old man in the mid 1990s. He claimed to have been a sonderkommando. He said many survived but went into hiding because they were reviled, and retaliated on. He also said the story of them being routinely being killed to keep the secret was not true. He pointed out it didn't make logical or practical sense. Any replacements would learn the secret as soon as they started work so no matter how many were supposedly killed there would always be the same number that knew the secret. Killing large numbers of workers experienced with the job, and equipment would have degraded efficiency, and speed. He said speed was the top priority of the job. He said the myth of the killing of the sonderkommado arose as explanation for why they didn't come forward to testify about the Holocaust. It was a guilt driven myth because they drove them into hiding in fear for their lives at the hands of people reviling, and retaliating against them. 2600:8807:5400:600:D0B2:3983:9366:1A8B (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Another meaning of Sonderkommando

Sonderkommandos along with Einsatzkommandos are subunits Einsatzgruppens, special killing task forces of SS. This another meaning of Sondercommando must be dwelt on the article. To find more, please Google words "Sonderkommandos Einsatzkommandos difference" Slav70 (talk) 03:49, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

HAbad Congregatiin Moscow , RF 8.012022

Active and vocal during Russian ocupațional of Ukraine 37.144.247.186 (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2024

Please change:

The first depiction of the Sonderkommando revolt was titled Ikh leb (I live), a play written by Jewish author Moshe Pinchevski. It was also the first post-World War 2, Yiddish-language performance at the Idisher Kultur Farband Teater in Bucharest, Romania, in 1945.[42]

to:

The first depiction of the Sonderkommando revolt was a play titled Nachtshicht (NightShift), a play written by Jewish author Ludovic Bruckstein. It was staged by the State Jewish Theaters in Bucharest and Iasi, from 1949 to 1958, see [42].

(the play Ich Lieb does not talk about a Sonderkommando at all, as is clear from reading the reference carefully), 132.68.46.72 (talk) 13:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. The reference listed does not exemplify the change you are suggesting. You should establish a consensus before the change is made. cyberdog958^Talk 07:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

'Death factory workers' section

This section starts with an unequivocal (and unreferenced) statement "Sonderkommando members did not participate directly in killing". This is directly at odds with, ie. the US Holocaust Memorial Museum which states in its introduction to the subject that "Work in the Sonderkommando was physically exhausting and psychologically destructive. These prisoners were forbidden from warning the incoming victims of their fate and were forced to participate in the process of killing." (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/sonderkommandos, section 'Sonderkommandos in the Killing Centers', paragraph 5). Suggest correcting this error as it is indicative of the true depth of horror of this enforced role. 2A01:4B00:C004:6800:1521:2446:2C31:73F7 (talk) 11:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I suppose the definition of "directly involved" is the question here. Should we at least make it clear that they were made to play a part in the killing?

ie. "While the killing was carried out by the SS, Sonderkommando members were forced to take on roles in the process, as well as being tasked with clean-up and the disposal of corpses."

? 2A01:4B00:C004:6800:1521:2446:2C31:73F7 (talk) 12:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)